tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9242710.post2056508227861762166..comments2023-10-31T07:23:17.922-04:00Comments on The Theos Project: Moreland on Ethical EgotismJonathan Erdmanhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/04234688186113838474noreply@blogger.comBlogger15125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9242710.post-9359230810798879042007-04-05T10:52:00.000-04:002007-04-05T10:52:00.000-04:00The non-Christians are self-centered, as are many ...The non-Christians are self-centered, as are many of the self-proclaimed Christians. So does the circle of the elect gets smaller? Alternatively, if the non-Christian follows a Christian ethic without expecting to receive any of the promised benefits (eternal life being the big one, no doubt about it), then is this non-Christian <I>less</I> self-centered than the Christian? I know, I know, it's pride and the desire to achieve righteousness on your own. So say this non-Christian isn't even laying any claims to righteousness -- just doing the right thing because it's right.john doylehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05484728969355294193noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9242710.post-90987082827563341242007-04-05T09:45:00.000-04:002007-04-05T09:45:00.000-04:00On a traditional Christian conception of the self ...On a traditional Christian conception of the self it is true that a non-Christ-centered life is a self-centered life. But maybe the difference is not quite so clear. For example, what if someone wants to live a Christ-centered life not because they love Christ, but because they loath themselves? Their own self-hatred leads them to seek fulfillment and actualization by taking on the form of another. And who better than Jesus, the God-incarnate? Many of us in the church would see this person as pious, no doubt. But if we were to dig deeper, under the layers and layers of the conscious barriers and start hitting the core of the person we might find a deeply insecure and desperate individual who would seek to latch on to anything that could help him/her through their loathing of self.<BR/><BR/>Is this person a non-Christian? Are there things about each of us that drive us to Christ that are not "pure"? Are there layers that we should be stripping away? Or is it better to just live and let live? Sometimes these self-investigations get very ugly.Jonathan Erdmanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04234688186113838474noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9242710.post-28114043678810881042007-04-05T09:38:00.000-04:002007-04-05T09:38:00.000-04:00I figured since this post is about specifically Ch...I figured since this post is about specifically <I>Christian</I> egocentrism I was off the hook. In the Christian playbook anyone who isn't Christ-centered is automatically self-centered, no? My recent investigations have explored the mysterious frontier between ego-centered and id-centered agnosticism. Unfortunately the log entries documenting this expedition are written in a wordless language, making it impossible to deposit here any meaningful... meaningfulness. I'll report back if the experimental yodafication proves successful.john doylehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05484728969355294193noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9242710.post-31488984846182513852007-04-05T08:51:00.000-04:002007-04-05T08:51:00.000-04:00I'm Salacious B. Crumb. He's that little creature ...I'm <A HREF="http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Salacious_B._Crumb" REL="nofollow">Salacious B. Crumb</A>. He's that little creature in Jabba the Hutt's lair (the court jester) who keeps laughing at everything that's going on.Jonathan Erdmanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04234688186113838474noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9242710.post-17987653672123209962007-04-05T08:15:00.000-04:002007-04-05T08:15:00.000-04:00And that would make you...?And that would make you...?Melodyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10071513255237535104noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9242710.post-30528628680688795832007-04-04T17:35:00.000-04:002007-04-04T17:35:00.000-04:00If this blog is Star Wars, then John Doyle is Yoda...If this blog is Star Wars, then John Doyle is Yoda.Jonathan Erdmanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04234688186113838474noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9242710.post-11766632213454251112007-04-04T17:33:00.000-04:002007-04-04T17:33:00.000-04:00...rats...how about asses? Don't go kicking too h......rats...how about asses? Don't go kicking too hard, though, or else you might find your loosely connected or even alienated leg swinging around and landing on top of your own head. I doubt you would want that.<BR/><BR/>John Doyle...yes...smarty pants himself. Good to have around for a good question or two, though :)Jason Hesiakhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12628162727207930087noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9242710.post-26433218985419790752007-04-04T11:18:00.000-04:002007-04-04T11:18:00.000-04:00Weeeeelllll....Thanks, Jason. That certainly boost...Weeeeelllll....Thanks, Jason. That certainly boosts <I>my</I> own personal egoism! Of course, now I might post a response out of pride and hence we have our discussion of ethical egotism...rats......<BR/><BR/>Actually, if we are talking about those with the most philosophical knowledge of the self we would have to all defer to John Doyle. Unfortunately he is on a sabatical from commenting on this blog. But maybe when he returns........Jonathan Erdmanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04234688186113838474noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9242710.post-85639610990701433002007-04-04T11:12:00.000-04:002007-04-04T11:12:00.000-04:00Johnathan,All I meant with my comment about your k...Johnathan,<BR/>All I meant with my comment about your knowing "self" better than I is your philosophical knowledge on the subject. You know more about more philosophers who deal with the self, I think.Jason Hesiakhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12628162727207930087noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9242710.post-32484806871828651992007-04-04T10:04:00.000-04:002007-04-04T10:04:00.000-04:00As long as we're talking about motivations, what i...<I>As long as we're talking about motivations, what is the motivation for a pure motivation? </I><BR/><BR/>Nice.Jonathan Erdmanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04234688186113838474noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9242710.post-192185382624174572007-04-04T09:08:00.000-04:002007-04-04T09:08:00.000-04:00I don't know about the motivation and reasons bit ...I don't know about the motivation and reasons bit of things. Sounds like Moreland's doing some word re-defining. The words aren't quite synonimous, but they're close enough that trying to figure out his distinction is giving me a headache. <BR/><BR/>But it's been bothering lately that people keep thinking Christians should, or rather that they <I>can</I>, have pure motives.<BR/><BR/>We can't. It's not possible. The bible tells us over and over and over again that our hearts are deceitful and wicked. Even the good things we do are counted as dirty rags. <BR/><BR/>God set up the program the way it is (with us unable to earn salvation) <I>because</I> it's impossible for us to have pure motives we would just end up being proud of ourselves for earning heaven. <BR/><BR/>Yet I keep having these conversations with people where they're rambling on about how they'd be Christians even if there was no heaven.<BR/><BR/>Excuse me? If there was no heaven there would be no point. If we weren't already screwed up so badly that we couldn't fix it on our own, there would be no point.<BR/><BR/>Furthermore, doesn't the idea that we could have pure motivations put us, to a certain extent, on the same level of God? Doesn't it call God a liar when the Bible states that we can do no good on our own?<BR/><BR/>As long as we're talking about motivations, what is the motivation for a pure motivation? <BR/><BR/>Why do we want it so badly? Isn't it to prove that we're better than others? That we're worthy of God's time?Melodyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10071513255237535104noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9242710.post-76354574947836695872007-04-04T07:55:00.000-04:002007-04-04T07:55:00.000-04:00Jason,I'm not sure I've got any better idea of a "...Jason,<BR/>I'm not sure I've got any better idea of a "self" than anyone else.....maybe that's a good thing....maybe if I "understood" the self that this would really mean that I missed the point???Jonathan Erdmanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04234688186113838474noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9242710.post-5311980441360783312007-04-04T07:53:00.000-04:002007-04-04T07:53:00.000-04:00Jon: Who on earth would believe and live out an id...Jon: <I>Who on earth would believe and live out an idea that didn't have any trace of ethical egoism?</I><BR/><BR/>Yeah, that's a good question. This issue gets very complicated because there are definitely biblical instances where we are challenged to put aside our own self-interests and work for the self-interests of others. Jason brought up the example of David as an example of someone who did something right, but did it in self-interest. The rich young ruler came to Jesus and asked him what to do to have eternal life. Jesus told him to sell everything and follow him. And, "anyone who would come after me must deny himself, take up his cross daily and follow me."<BR/><BR/>But even in examples where we seem to have pure motives one might even question why we have pure motives. Have we purified our motives because the benefits of such purging are greater than the alternative? "For me to live is Christ and to die is gain!" This seems like self-denial, but when we look closer it seems like the pursuit of Christ is just much more valuable than anything else. Is this still ethical egotism? Or is it ok to pursue Christ because he is "hidden treasure" and "the pearl of great price"?Jonathan Erdmanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04234688186113838474noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9242710.post-63389552101691237392007-04-03T22:47:00.000-04:002007-04-03T22:47:00.000-04:001. Christian apologetics is boring and arcane. T...1. Christian apologetics is boring and arcane. Take that as an extreme statement of my acutal view on the matter, which is similar, but less extreme.<BR/><BR/>2. Who said Christianity was about avoiding hell and getting into heaven anyway?<BR/><BR/>3. I like the basic idea of what you are saying...that there is a mix of "selfishness" and "pure motives" in all actions. But I would like to see it reframed. Let me do this a bit by way of example. <BR/><BR/>I just finished reading 01 Samuel. David has easy chances to kill Saul and take his RIGHTFUL place at the throne of Isreal. He does not. Pretty much because murdering the king of Isreal isn't the "right" thing to do, in itself (open to deconstructive analysis of the term "right", of course, but anyway...moving on). His reason? "Who ever killed the annointed one of Isreal and got away with it?" <BR/><BR/>So, yes, partially "selfish". But that word there has a meaning that would have been foreign to David. "Seek ye first..." "The kingdom of God is within you..."<BR/><BR/>So, basically...I see two things being put in tension that don't necessarily need to be in tension. Not only that, but it might be counter-productive to PUT them in tension? The choice is between sin and righteousness (with Grace in the picture), not between selfishness and not-selfishness, no? <BR/><BR/>So then this also involves a question of who or what "self" is in the first place as well. A question, Johnathan, with which you are more familiar than I, I think.<BR/><BR/>:)Jason Hesiakhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12628162727207930087noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9242710.post-90853634453013421972007-04-03T18:30:00.000-04:002007-04-03T18:30:00.000-04:00Isn't the whole point of having a religion or worl...Isn't the whole point of having a religion or worldview that you will experience things beneficial to you? Who on earth would believe and live out an idea that <I>didn't</I> have any trace of ethical egoism? This seems to me to be one of the weaker arguments against Christianity I have heard.<BR/><BR/>That being said, I think Moreland is incredibly brilliant. On this point, though, I would agree more with you. Indeed, if we have died to self and live for Christ, then what we do in our own interest would really be in Christ's interest and therefore would not be egotistic. When we lapse into our carnal nature, then, yes, we may act exclusively with our own fleshly interests in mind. In each case, however, "ethical egoism" means something almost entirely different and certainly has completely opposite results when viewed eternally.Jonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13533252542115553519noreply@blogger.com