tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9242710.post2507098485774391165..comments2023-10-31T07:23:17.922-04:00Comments on The Theos Project: Can we make others be good without God?Jonathan Erdmanhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/04234688186113838474noreply@blogger.comBlogger12125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9242710.post-64603790397089118962007-03-07T15:24:00.000-05:002007-03-07T15:24:00.000-05:00Here is a piece of satire from a Greenwich Village...Here is a piece of satire from a Greenwich Village church that points out the perceived inability of atheism/agnosticism to provide a grounds for morality. They obviously hold the position that one must posit "God" in order to provide a framework for morality....but it is a rather humorous little tune....<BR/><BR/><A HREF="http://www.villagechurchnyc.com/news/2007/01/revolution/" REL="nofollow">http://www.villagechurchnyc.com/news/2007/01/revolution/</A>Jonathan Erdmanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04234688186113838474noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9242710.post-2335989068247776522007-03-07T15:15:00.000-05:002007-03-07T15:15:00.000-05:00Hi ktismatics,I'm not sure that good moral charact...Hi ktismatics,<BR/><BR/>I'm not sure that good moral character is possible within any context. It seems to me that good moral actions have to be rational, selfless and potentially involve a significant sacrifice. <BR/><BR/>If some kind of love is a reason to be moral, then that kind of love (if that kind of love exists at all) must have a supernatural aspect. At least, I think that is the case.<BR/><BR/>I actually think I'm as cowardly and morally bankrupt as anyone else but thanks for trying to lighten up the conversation.<BR/><BR/>MattMatthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10809709806242643867noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9242710.post-21418373445569493142007-02-27T08:18:00.000-05:002007-02-27T08:18:00.000-05:00In a secular context, being of good moral characte...<I>In a secular context, being of good moral character means behaving irrationally.</I> From this I infer that good moral character is rational within the context of faith. But then you say, <I>It is not by reason that we would do things without a motive.</I> You cite love as a reason to be moral. Are you saying that acting from love is irrational in a secular context?<BR/><BR/>I inferred from your remarks about the cowardly and the morally bankrupt that you thought you weren't like that yourself. I guess I was drawing the wrong inference there. No, to tell you the truth, I was trying to lighten up the conversation a little. Didn't work -- I guess we don't know each other well enough.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9242710.post-66657159641369658802007-02-27T03:29:00.000-05:002007-02-27T03:29:00.000-05:00Where did I say that I was brave and intrinsically...Where did I say that I was brave and intrinsically moral? How about just using my words instead of putting yours into my mouth?<BR/><BR/>It is not by reason that we would do things without a motive.Matthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10809709806242643867noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9242710.post-66465998997417744222007-02-26T20:35:00.000-05:002007-02-26T20:35:00.000-05:00Matt -I take it then that you are one of those bra...Matt -<BR/><BR/>I take it then that you are one of those brave, intrinsically moral souls -- congratulations. Yet you say it's irrational to do the right thing, to be brave and moral without regard for reward or punishment, without God. Why?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9242710.post-23257324936664107962007-02-26T17:26:00.000-05:002007-02-26T17:26:00.000-05:00Is our love for our spouse, our children, our pare...Is our love for our spouse, our children, our parents, nothing more than seeking a reward? Can you accept that there is something about love for others that doesn't involve rewards?<BR/><BR/>Our society has a number of ways to control our behavior. Fear of punishment and desire for praise, as examples. People who behave only because of fear are cowards and those who behave only because of desire for rewards are morally bankrupt. <BR/><BR/>MattMatthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10809709806242643867noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9242710.post-22204598047049395862007-02-26T11:43:00.000-05:002007-02-26T11:43:00.000-05:0010Matt39 -Would you do the right thing if you didn...10Matt39 -<BR/>Would you do the right thing if you didn't believe that God would reward you, either through the promise of eternal life or even just the internal sense that God is pleased with you?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9242710.post-92081876651099099502007-02-26T07:42:00.000-05:002007-02-26T07:42:00.000-05:00Hi,I think we need to be clear about what we mean ...Hi,<BR/>I think we need to be clear about what we mean by "good". If I substitute "acceptable behavior" for "good", then certainly we can have acceptable behavior without God. And we know that punishments and rewards can help achieve that acceptable behavior. <BR/><BR/>However, if we're talking something other than just behavior, then that is different. We often define good moral character as doing the right thing without regard to punishment or reward. In a secular context, being of good moral character means behaving irrationally. Every time we try to find a secular motive to act morally, we're back to just rewards and punishments and other tools of behavior modification.Matthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10809709806242643867noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9242710.post-35497920795580790322007-01-05T20:53:00.000-05:002007-01-05T20:53:00.000-05:00Ha, ha!
Good point, Melody - nice example!
Have ...Ha, ha!<br /><br />Good point, Melody - nice example!<br /><br />Have you and your sister patched things up since then????Jonathan Erdmanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04234688186113838474noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9242710.post-24169703448327486712007-01-05T20:51:00.000-05:002007-01-05T20:51:00.000-05:00Yes, but the Jews were saved! They may not have be...Yes, but the Jews were saved! They may not have been saved from the sword, but they were certainly saved by the knowledge that what was happening to them was <i>wrong</i>. To lose your life but save your integrity....<br /><br /><i>Is God's moral standard the highest one because he's ultimately got the greatest power of enforcement? If so then doesn't it still come down to might makes right?</i><br /><br />Ok, I actually do think there is something to this.....From what I know about philosophical moral theories (meta-ethics) most theories seem to want to rest or ground morality in <i>one</i> thing. I do not feel the need to necessarily ground morality in any one theory, and as such I definitely think that one reason to consider God's feelings on the whole moral issue is because he's the biggest, strongest, and toughest of all of us, i.e. we will be judged by his standards one day. So, there is definitely a sense in which "might makes right."<br /><br />However, there is also a higher moral standard that seems encoded in our universe and within our hearts and consciences.Jonathan Erdmanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04234688186113838474noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9242710.post-14121693511991029142007-01-05T11:49:00.000-05:002007-01-05T11:49:00.000-05:00As kids my sister used to ask my parents to force ...As kids my sister used to ask my parents to force me to play with her. Left with out options I would tell her, "You can make me play with you, but you can't make me have fun"<br /><br />We can make people go through the motions of being good...but that's entirely different than them being good themselves.Melodyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10071513255237535104noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9242710.post-83834421253537862522007-01-05T11:44:00.000-05:002007-01-05T11:44:00.000-05:00Certainly appealing to a higher standard didn't sa...Certainly appealing to a higher standard didn't save the Jews from Hitler -- at least not in this life. Is God's moral standard the highest one because he's ultimately got the greatest power of enforcement? If so then doesn't it still come down to might makes right?john doylehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05484728969355294193noreply@blogger.com