tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9242710.post3378450423086077541..comments2023-10-31T07:23:17.922-04:00Comments on The Theos Project: Merging and SubmergingJonathan Erdmanhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/04234688186113838474noreply@blogger.comBlogger17125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9242710.post-24929457783041873042008-12-19T17:25:00.000-05:002008-12-19T17:25:00.000-05:00....which also relates to philosophical discussion.......which also relates to philosophical discussion of "<A HREF="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_other" REL="nofollow">the other</A>" and/or "othering."Jonathan Erdmanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04234688186113838474noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9242710.post-29055717610575819772008-12-19T16:34:00.000-05:002008-12-19T16:34:00.000-05:00I've had debates at Open Source Theology about thi...I've had debates at Open Source Theology about this issue of Christian exclusivity and its connection to the Old Testament. Andrew, the guy who runs OST, regards the Church as direct descendant of Israel in the sense of being a peculiar people set apart to God in the midst of a fallen creation that's destined for judgment. This seems like the kind of thinking that Paul is reacting against. After all, Paul was the Apostle to the Gentiles, and it sure doesn't seem to me that he's ever trying to get the Gentiles to enter into a Christianized version of Israel. The establishment of a separate Christian culture you're reacting against does sound a lot like Old Testament thinking. When the old distinctions no longer hold it's always easier to build them right back up again than to create something else inside the void.john doylehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05484728969355294193noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9242710.post-79355510410311938772008-12-19T15:37:00.000-05:002008-12-19T15:37:00.000-05:00What strikes me as important about your current ex...What strikes me as important about your current exegesis of Paul's "new creation" theology is that it would seem, on the surface, to support a "merging/submerging" approach to faith, don't you think?<BR/><BR/>It seems to me that most of the Protestant world reverted back into the Old Testament, rather than charting new territory in the new era of Christ. The <A HREF="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dispensationalism" REL="nofollow">Dispensationalists</A> of yonder days understood the importance of not building too many bridges back to the Old Covenant and the importance of living in the new era....unfortunately they got quite screwed up by getting wrapped up in the "literal" Bibly Fundamentalist hysteria, and they focused too much energy on end times prophecy. As such, they couldn't ever fully realize the powerful doctrines upon which they had unwittingly stumbled.<BR/><BR/>But you (Ktismatics) have really hit on a key issue in the debate about emerging, merging, or submerging: are we working toward a reconciliation of all people? Or, is the era of Christ merely an upgraded form of Judaism under law: a focus on exclusivism and division.Jonathan Erdmanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04234688186113838474noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9242710.post-9936876302575151542008-12-19T15:28:00.000-05:002008-12-19T15:28:00.000-05:00Your first post is excellent. Here is the link, fo...Your first post is excellent. Here is the link, for those intersted: <A HREF="http://ktismatics.wordpress.com/2008/12/19/the-new-creation-in-paul-galatians-6/" REL="nofollow">New Creation in Gal 6</A>Jonathan Erdmanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04234688186113838474noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9242710.post-46798553147227390672008-12-19T08:56:00.000-05:002008-12-19T08:56:00.000-05:00I know it's tacky to promote one's own blog on som...I know it's tacky to promote one's own blog on somebody else's blog, but if anyone here is interested today I'm starting a series of exegeses on Paul's theme of the "new creation." (I doubt whether many of the regular Ktismatics readers are interested in these Bible studies I undertake from time to time.) Part of my inference from the "new creation" idea is that Paul probably wouldn't like the distinction between "Christian" and "non-Christian" any more than he liked the one between Jew and Gentile.john doylehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05484728969355294193noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9242710.post-21443269753405952562008-12-19T07:20:00.000-05:002008-12-19T07:20:00.000-05:00Could I see myself involved with merging/submergin...Could I see myself involved with merging/submerging? Probably, depending on what you see holding it together and giving it movement. Getting the branding that distinguishes Christian from non-Christian would help. Figuring out what faith, hope and love are about would be good, along with the truth, beauty and justice. Trying to discern the trajectories of the Spirit and how they're different from groupthink and marketing. Also some sense of self-discovery and self-creation and personal engagement that doesn't lapse into self-absorption and egoism.<BR/><BR/>What does merging/emerging look like to you at this preliminary stage, Erdman?john doylehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05484728969355294193noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9242710.post-14834810067405366732008-12-18T11:30:00.000-05:002008-12-18T11:30:00.000-05:00Ktismatics,Even though an acknowledged agnostic, c...Ktismatics,<BR/><BR/>Even though an acknowledged agnostic, could you see yourself involved with any emerging/merging/submerging/etc. group? If so, what might that look like?Jonathan Erdmanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04234688186113838474noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9242710.post-59930849329382030172008-12-18T11:27:00.000-05:002008-12-18T11:27:00.000-05:00Yes, I agree with you K, that McKnight & Co. a...Yes, I agree with you K, that McKnight & Co. are not doing anything too radically different, and yet they are different enough from mainline Evangelicalism that they can be considered as doctrinal deviants.<BR/><BR/>I tend to think that there are a lot of people of faith (perhaps many who are formerly of the "Christian" variety) who just kind of quit on Christianity and did the merge/submerge thing without any kind of substantive reflectiveness on whether they wanted to merge, emerge, submerge, etc. I think it is always interesting to meet such people. The Christianity that grew out of Fundamentalist and Evangelical circles was such a huge force in the 20th century, and there are many many casualties of war! But there are also many who want to kind of recontextualize the evangelical approach (as McKnight and others seek to do). I'm not down on McKnight at all, I think he has some good thoughts to add to the mix. I guess I just feel that for myself, I'm just not excited about any new Movement.<BR/><BR/>But, yes, I have met some interesting people along the way, and I continue to meet interesting people.Jonathan Erdmanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04234688186113838474noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9242710.post-797986329801901612008-12-18T07:49:00.000-05:002008-12-18T07:49:00.000-05:00If you think merge/submerge is the right move, I s...If you think merge/submerge is the right move, I say go for it. Why expect the Emergents to lead or follow you there? Maybe you'll meet different, more interesting people along that other path.<BR/><BR/>I think maybe we've discussed this before, but in the "RIP Emerging Church" piece it seems that McKnight & co. are just retrenching in traditional evangelicalism by adopting a conservative doctrinal statement and rebranding "evangelistic" as "missional."john doylehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05484728969355294193noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9242710.post-41819999212567272702008-12-17T14:29:00.000-05:002008-12-17T14:29:00.000-05:00Ah, thank you Jason....now I see what you are ques...Ah, thank you Jason....now I see what you are questioning.....here's my thinking, to clarify:<BR/><BR/>I'm opposed to "Christian culture"--the idea that we need to develop our own "purified" version of culture. So, we produce movies and music that do not use four letter words, we open schools that teach a so-called "biblical" worldview, we have Christian yoga, etc.<BR/><BR/>Usually much of this will center (locally) around a church that kind of helps regulate what is okay and what is not okay.<BR/><BR/>Really what we do is create a Christian sub-culture.<BR/><BR/>I'm saying ditch this approach of creating a separate "Christian" culture...i.e., get rid of using "Christian" as an adjective....and merge with and be active within the culture in which we find ourselves embedded. I am NOT saying to just do whatever without thinking critically or morally....i.e., I don't think that we should drive SUV's just b/c everyone else in our culture does so....What I do think is important is to recognize that there is no one, "Christian" way to do anything; or one "Christian" way to live or act.<BR/><BR/>Jason, does that help clarify a bit???Jonathan Erdmanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04234688186113838474noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9242710.post-23338041862901612612008-12-17T12:59:00.000-05:002008-12-17T12:59:00.000-05:00uuhh...the culture is dominated by that very comme...uuhh...the culture is dominated by that very commercialization! i've even heard you complain...i think in your Girard post...that "Christian culture" imitates the "culture at large" with all of its "Christian" pop stars, ect..."Christian rap", "Christian heavy metal", blah blah blah. there is an underground "counter-culture" that isn't "Christian", but is this what you are referring to when you say "merging with culture"? i wouldn't think so, or you would have clarified, i would think.<BR/>??Jason Hesiakhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12628162727207930087noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9242710.post-25844651192857016982008-12-17T08:39:00.000-05:002008-12-17T08:39:00.000-05:00Jason, my friend, how so???Jason, my friend, how so???Jonathan Erdmanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04234688186113838474noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9242710.post-21461686055193868562008-12-17T07:49:00.000-05:002008-12-17T07:49:00.000-05:00i'm confused by the merging with culture thing. w...i'm confused by the merging with culture thing. wouldn't that mean the exact commercilization that you and i are annoyed with?Jason Hesiakhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12628162727207930087noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9242710.post-1412141095788963192008-12-16T21:31:00.000-05:002008-12-16T21:31:00.000-05:00Rachel,One more question....what do you mean by "c...Rachel,<BR/><BR/>One more question....what do you mean by "change of life"?<BR/><BR/>Also, yes, I agree that the whole love/grace/freedom thing becomes a cheap buzz word in many religious circles....and other non-religious circles too....turue that....still, they seem foundational: faith, hope, love, but the greatest of these...Jonathan Erdmanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04234688186113838474noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9242710.post-55034465180595896472008-12-15T19:39:00.000-05:002008-12-15T19:39:00.000-05:00Yeah, Green's a tough nut to crack ;)ok, so....I w...Yeah, Green's a tough nut to crack ;)<BR/><BR/>ok, so....<BR/>I would definitely include "freedom, openness, love, acceptance, grace, and self-discovery" in my list of things that we are called to in Christ but I don't think that is a complete list. As far as Holy is concerned, I define that as 'set apart.' Not in a "better than everyone else and don't want to rub elbows with them" sort of way, that sort of defeats the whole thing. I mean that we are supposed to honor God with our lives in such a way that everything else becomes secondary to that purpose. <BR/>Coming back to the "merge", grace, love, freedom, acceptance thing. I think I am a little over sensitive to those terms because they have become buzz-word in the church of watered-down-touchy-feely-don't-rock-the-boat christianity. Jesus gave us the model of grace, love and acceptance for all people but he also challenged people to change their live, told it like it was, and pissed quite a few people off because of it. If we just preached love and acceptance no one would have a problem with us, its when we start talking about faith in Christ being the only way to God and that a person might actually need to change the way they live in order to live in a way that honors God that we start getting into trouble.<BR/><BR/>I'm sure I've made an ass of myself one way or another but I have to bring up one more thing. <BR/><BR/>I think that the ideas of love and acceptance have been cheapened by our culture. To truly love all people and accept all people is such a powerful thing and I don't know that there are many who actually embody those ideals (myself included). I think we let ourselves off too easy.<BR/><BR/>Ok, I've been at this too long and I need to pay attention to my kid. <BR/><BR/>Thanks for the brain-food!Rachelhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02996315329175253184noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9242710.post-63546340564210461642008-12-14T14:34:00.000-05:002008-12-14T14:34:00.000-05:00Hi Rachel!I love the baby pics on your blog.By way...Hi Rachel!<BR/><BR/>I love the baby pics on your blog.<BR/><BR/>By way of a brief response....I tend to define "holy" and "Christlike" <I>as</I> "freedom, openness, love, acceptance, grace, and self-discovery."....I mean, that's not necessarily an absolute definition, but I'm curious as to what you mean by "Christlike" and "holy."<BR/><BR/>I also tend to think that defining "the world" as those things that stand in the way of freedom/openness/love/acceptance/grace/etc. goes a long way to understanding what it means to be opposed to the life and message of Christ.<BR/><BR/>What think ye, my friend???<BR/><BR/>Next time I am in Tejas and we play clue I'm going to win!...I knew it was Mr. Green!...that damned schemer that he is!Jonathan Erdmanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04234688186113838474noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9242710.post-2297176244118999482008-12-14T13:49:00.000-05:002008-12-14T13:49:00.000-05:00John,I have a bit of an issue with your "merge" id...John,<BR/>I have a bit of an issue with your "merge" idea. "freedom, openness, love, acceptance, grace, and self-discovery" are great and the world at large would love that kind of theology if it stopped there and didn't include "Christlike" and "holy". In our effort to separate from dead, corrupt, corporate-Christianity its important not to forget that 'in-but-not- of' thing.Rachelhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02996315329175253184noreply@blogger.com