tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9242710.post5678115977687549103..comments2023-10-31T07:23:17.922-04:00Comments on The Theos Project: Scattered thoughts on sacrificial readingJonathan Erdmanhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/04234688186113838474noreply@blogger.comBlogger16125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9242710.post-28126378335716090352008-01-08T15:17:00.000-05:002008-01-08T15:17:00.000-05:00Kenji said:The goal of exegesis is to determine th...Kenji said:<BR/><I>The goal of exegesis is to determine that one interpretation.</I><BR/><BR/>Who says?...if I may venture to ask the provocative question....Historically, exegetes in the early church did not always believe there was "one meaning," nor did they believe that finding one meaning was the goal of exegesis. For early interpreters, it was equally important to discover the relevance that a text held for the reader (individually) and also the community of readers. We also find this at work in Paul's use of the Old Testament, and it is also particularly clear in the book of Hebrews where there is no attempt to distinguish the so-called original meaning of the Old Testament from the meaning that the text has for the current church context.<BR/><BR/>I tend to favor the older exegetes.Jonathan Erdmanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04234688186113838474noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9242710.post-24207604721658574242008-01-08T13:32:00.000-05:002008-01-08T13:32:00.000-05:00Well, I must say that I am a fan of the Spiral, be...Well, I must say that I am a fan of the Spiral, because it does take seriously the issue of how our presuppositions and culture affect our interpretation of the text. The idea is that as we interact with the text and do take seriously how our presupps can affect interpretation, the text will cause us to modify those presupps to more biblically accurate presupps, thus operating in a spiral-like fashion.<BR/><BR/>As far as the eisegesis/exegesis issue; I do find it to be serious. I have sat through many studies and sermons that were a clear eisegesis approach, so much that the real message of Scripture was severely obscured. I am a firm believer in the idea that there is only one interpretation, while there may be many culturally defined applications. The goal of exegesis is to determine that one interpretation.Kenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00417377845348501025noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9242710.post-44343205401254616282008-01-07T13:16:00.000-05:002008-01-07T13:16:00.000-05:00No, I would tell kids to just have as much fun as ...<I>No, I would tell kids to just have as much fun as they want to have... At any stage in life, we get what we put in to it. "I commend the enjoyment of life," as it says in Ecclesiastes.</I><BR/><BR/>Alright, maybe the children of Winona Lake will be safe to have fun after all. Good thing you tacked on a moral and a bible verse though - you can get your membership to adulthood revoked if you go around telling kids to have fun without having a moral.Melodyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10071513255237535104noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9242710.post-59009295602196838472008-01-07T13:00:00.000-05:002008-01-07T13:00:00.000-05:00Ken,I'm not sure I'm a big fan of the hermeneutica...Ken,<BR/><BR/>I'm not sure I'm a big fan of the hermeneutical spiral. The concept was stolen from the German hermeneutical philosophies that developed in the early 1900s (see Heidegger and especially Gadamer). The original concept is a hermeneutical circle whereby the reader brings presuppositions/biases/concerns/questions/etc. to the text and then the text, in turn, changes those p/b/c/q's, and then the reader takes those p/b/c/q's and comes back to a text, etc.: it is a circle of the reader affecting the text and the text affecting the reader. <BR/><BR/>Evangelicalism (Osborne) kind of tweaked that with the idea by saying that it is not a hermeneutical circle, but a spiral. This is a subtle, but very important (and inaccurate) shift. Why shift to a spiral? So that we can have the (false) confidence that we are moving closer and closer to the "real meaning" of the text. As I'm sure you can see, this is part of the Evangelical reaction to the so-called relativity of so-called postmodern hermeneutics.<BR/><BR/>So, there remains what I see as a huge problem in Evangelical hermeneutics. On the one hand, they want to take scholarship somewhat seriously and assert that our p/b/c/q's really do matter, but on the other hand, they want to eliminate the p/b/c/q's through a spiral that spirals down to "the meaning" of the text. I think this fails to do justice to the hermeneutical task. IMO it also does not take seriously enough our p/b/c/q's, and the need to provide relevant application to the current day. It sounds scary to many Evangelicals for me to say this, but I believe that the exegesis/eisegesis distinction is overblown. What the Bible means has as much to do with <I>what the Bible means for us today</I> as it does to a supposed "one meaning" for all time.Jonathan Erdmanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04234688186113838474noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9242710.post-10561587827364379462008-01-07T12:51:00.000-05:002008-01-07T12:51:00.000-05:00No, I would tell kids to just have as much fun as ...No, I would tell kids to just have as much fun as they want to have. That they should do the things they enjoy doing, whether that be reading, tearing around in a bike, exploring the woods, video games, or whatever kids do. At any stage in life, we get what we put in to it. "I commend the enjoyment of life," as it says in Ecclesiastes.<BR/><BR/>I'm not a parent, so I don't have to put the smack down and tell kids to do things like take out the trash, be responsible, stop pulling your sister's hair, etc.Jonathan Erdmanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04234688186113838474noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9242710.post-73882622732935607852008-01-07T12:29:00.000-05:002008-01-07T12:29:00.000-05:00Like my dad? He did scare me when I was younger. H...<I>Like my dad? He did scare me when I was younger. He'd imply I wasn't truly living because I didn't have the fun that he did when he was my age.</I><BR/><BR/>lol, kinda. More of a, "Sure you're happy and carefree now - but in a few years you'll have to have a job and pay bills and that will sap all the joy out of your life" kind of deal. <BR/><BR/>Except that now that I think about it I'm not sure Jon would say that...maybe he'd tell the kids they needed to sober up and stop destroying the world with their self-endulgent happiness. <BR/><BR/>Either way I see the children being traumatized for life. <BR/><BR/>When I was really little I thought adults had all the fun and told kids being a grown up was awful so they could keep it a secret and not share the fun with us. <BR/><BR/>But after a while I believed them and then I didn't want to grow up at all. I absolutely dreaded highschool and college and getting a job. Everyone always told me how terrible those things were and I thought I'd never be happy again once I had to do those things.<BR/><BR/>Now of course I know that I was right the first time - being a kid bites, grown ups <I>do</I> have all the fun.Melodyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10071513255237535104noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9242710.post-27289420300883822192008-01-07T12:13:00.000-05:002008-01-07T12:13:00.000-05:00I bet your one of those depressing people that sca...<I>I bet your one of those depressing people that scares the snot out of kids by telling them to enjoy childhood while they can because they'll never enjoy life more than they do now.</I><BR/><BR/>Like my dad? He did scare me when I was younger. He'd imply I wasn't truly living because I didn't have the fun that he did when he was my age. Of course, his definition of fun half the time involved breaking some kind of a rule of human decency.Emilyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00936753582229635864noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9242710.post-47392041594727640072008-01-07T11:50:00.000-05:002008-01-07T11:50:00.000-05:00Jon,Your points are well founded. I'm sure you've ...Jon,<BR/><BR/>Your points are well founded. I'm sure you've heard of the Hermeneutical Spiral (Grant Osborne). The idea is that we come to the text with certain questions and presuppositions, and we are supposed to allow our "q's and p's" to be modified and reformed by the text so that it speaks as it intended rather than what we prefer. However, often we do not allow for that to happen, and thus fall into the trap of eisegesis.<BR/><BR/>I would say that 3-point sermons are not inherently bad. If the sermon develops the meaning and intent of the text in such a way that it causes the hearer to respond appropriately, then it is good. But if we use it as a soapbox or if our exegesis is poor, then yes, a 3-point sermon will not do justice to the text.<BR/><BR/>No matter what type of homeletical style you choose, the question is really whether the preacher is willing to put into the message the work required. To many think they can write up a sermon in a matter of a couple hours using the 3-point method, but in reality, to develop a good, biblically sound and well thought sermon, I would venture to say, requires somewhere around 20 hours. The question is not what type of sermon a person does, but what kind of work is that person willing to put into the development of that sermon.<BR/><BR/>I had one prof in college who would say, "a preacher should have one foot in the text, and the other foot in the newspaper." He needs to be an expert exegete of Scripture as well as of culture and current issues.<BR/><BR/>Good thoughts.<BR/>KenKenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00417377845348501025noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9242710.post-12823058530129888212008-01-07T11:43:00.000-05:002008-01-07T11:43:00.000-05:00Life is always better when we don't know what's re...<I>Life is always better when we don't know what's real.</I><BR/><BR/>I bet your one of those depressing people that scares the snot out of kids by telling them to enjoy childhood while they can because they'll never enjoy life more than they do now.Melodyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10071513255237535104noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9242710.post-5363870154928881842008-01-07T11:19:00.000-05:002008-01-07T11:19:00.000-05:00Jonathan,Ironically, I went to a seminary where th...Jonathan,<BR/><BR/>Ironically, I went to a seminary where the President wrote the standard text on homiletics. And I valued my training there. What is ironic to me is that the process of sermon preparation was rightly focused on 'soaking in the text' and 'submitting to the text'. <BR/><BR/>For whatever reason, there was little emphasis on getting the hearers to soak in the text. In some ways, I might posit that the explanation is valued at or above the text itself. And this is from theologians who have a high view of perspicuity. <BR/><BR/>I'll be careful here, but I do think there is more to be done in homiletics than the '3 point sermon' as you point out. <BR/><BR/>Thanks again.Dru Johnsonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01358277615798012488noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9242710.post-87138863660722216262008-01-07T10:48:00.000-05:002008-01-07T10:48:00.000-05:00Life is always better when we don't know what's re...Life is always better when we don't know what's real.Jonathan Erdmanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04234688186113838474noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9242710.post-62567716744440461812008-01-07T09:19:00.000-05:002008-01-07T09:19:00.000-05:00No, I'll just have to live off turkey sandwiches a...No, I'll just have to live off turkey sandwiches and tears. The dinners won't taste the same now that I know it's all a charade.Melodyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10071513255237535104noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9242710.post-91784132723831821142008-01-07T08:58:00.000-05:002008-01-07T08:58:00.000-05:00Melody,Sorry to spoil it for you.....just keep pre...Melody,<BR/><BR/>Sorry to spoil it for you.....just keep pretending that Marie is shuffling around the kitchen just for you. Oh, and keep writing her letters and such thanking her for her delicious cooking!Jonathan Erdmanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04234688186113838474noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9242710.post-20487798002286350762008-01-07T08:57:00.000-05:002008-01-07T08:57:00.000-05:00Dru,It is encouraging to hear what you are doing i...Dru,<BR/><BR/>It is encouraging to hear what you are doing in your church. Your idea of reading epistles "interspersed" with application is intriguing. It almost sounds something like a Midrashic approach. I think there are many, many benefits to this that offer a breath of fresh air to the tired old 3 point sermon approach.<BR/><BR/>Yes, I specifically meant "sacrificial" reading. That is, rather than coming to a text looking to take from it, we sacrifice our personal interests for the sake of hearing and listening. I see this as a difficult thing to cultivate in our Consumeristic age.Jonathan Erdmanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04234688186113838474noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9242710.post-22134775341398379572008-01-06T20:54:00.000-05:002008-01-06T20:54:00.000-05:00Jonathan,Quick question... do you mean 'sacraficia...Jonathan,<BR/><BR/>Quick question... do you mean 'sacraficial' or 'sacramental'? Or, a little bit of both? <BR/><BR/>I agree whole heartedly and have taken to reading entire epistles as a sermon with discrete applications interspersed. I have seriously thought about even dedicating one of our Sunday School classes to the public reading of scripture. <BR/><BR/>Epistemologically, there is so much missed in the way these texts were 'supposed to be received' (i.e. engaged listening). We often talk <I> ad fontes</I> and yet seldom speak of returning to the form of scriptural reception. Thanks for prodding me further into that direction.<BR/><BR/>Congrats on the new house.Dru Johnsonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01358277615798012488noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9242710.post-19878383436163058202008-01-06T13:59:00.000-05:002008-01-06T13:59:00.000-05:00And all this time I thought Marie Calander was per...And all this time I thought Marie Calander was personally making me dinner!Melodyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10071513255237535104noreply@blogger.com