tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9242710.post6131827278948786028..comments2023-10-31T07:23:17.922-04:00Comments on The Theos Project: The System and Food, Inc.Jonathan Erdmanhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/04234688186113838474noreply@blogger.comBlogger37125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9242710.post-63521495349692050252009-07-02T14:15:23.299-04:002009-07-02T14:15:23.299-04:00Melody,
Jesus didn't overturn the tables of t...Melody,<br /><br />Jesus didn't overturn the tables of the money changers just so that people could pray, it was so that people would not be exploited AND so that they could pray. That "the poor" are not mentioned by name is not relevant in any way, in my opinion, because the worshipers at the temple were from all demographics, from all social and economic classes. So, obviously the poor were included.<br /><br />The point is that when the powerful are exploiting the powerless, this is when the kingdom steps in. That's my interpretation of Jesus' ministry and vision for the kingdom.<br /><br />Obviously you differ on this point, which is fine. But then, let me take you to task a bit: what do you think Jesus' vision for the kingdom was? I'm asking you this in terms of how you interpret the Gospel texts themselves (Matthew, Mark, Luke, John), not necessarily jumping straight into Paul.<br /><br />(I have no problem talking about Paul's interpretation about what Jesus' life and death meant--I'm a big fan of Paul--but Jesus left us a body of work on his vision of "the kingdom," so I think it's important to think about it and not just skip straight into the Pauline epistles.)Jonathan Erdmanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04234688186113838474noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9242710.post-41806098209703122172009-07-02T13:51:47.506-04:002009-07-02T13:51:47.506-04:00Exploiting the poor?
He doesn't mention the po...Exploiting the poor?<br />He doesn't mention the poor. <br /><br />He does mention that the temple was "...a house of prayer for all the nations" and that they'd turned it into a "den of robbers"<br /><br />So presumably someone is getting ripped off in some fashion, but why the poor? <br /> <br />It seems to be more about people not being able to pray (maybe they're being robbed of their time with God?) than about the poor. Especially since, again, the poor are not mentioned.<br /><br />And, in any case, what does that have to do with what I said?Melodyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10071513255237535104noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9242710.post-76848838914399077262009-07-02T13:34:07.211-04:002009-07-02T13:34:07.211-04:00Jesus got a bit charged up when he saw the poor be...Jesus got a bit charged up when he saw the poor being exploited in the temple.Jonathan Erdmanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04234688186113838474noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9242710.post-63948695806991258302009-07-02T13:27:22.173-04:002009-07-02T13:27:22.173-04:00Jon,
I don't think I said Jesus wanted to mak...Jon,<br /><br />I don't think I <i>said</i> Jesus wanted to make trouble for the religious institution. <br /><br />He <i>did</i> want to change it. Take the next step, as it were. <br /><br />I don't know about the kingdom bit, I haven't got a Bible right here, but I don't really recall anyone jumping around getting angry about that. After all, they <i>were</i> the weak at the time, yeah? <br /><br />Jesus didn't have to only have three year's, Jon. He could have taken on Rome if that's what He'd been here to do.Melodyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10071513255237535104noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9242710.post-20049266977880621612009-07-02T13:00:52.453-04:002009-07-02T13:00:52.453-04:00Melody,
I don't think Jesus' primary miss...Melody,<br /><br />I don't think Jesus' primary mission was to stir things up and make trouble for religious institutions......although, if you want to make that Jesus' primary mission and seek to emulate him in this respect, then you have my eternal support!<br /><br />I see Jesus as being primarily motivated to give his vision of "the kingdom." It was the kingdom that made the religious folk so hot and bothered (combined, I suppose, with the fact that he called them "hypocrites" and "white washed tombs"!). The kingdom was about inverting power: those who are last will be first, blessed are the meek, etc.<br /><br />Jesus only had three years, of which time he spent (primarily) trying to get his own people (the Jews) to buy into the kingdom vision. If they would have, what would have been next? <br /><br />Rome? <br /><br />Probably.Jonathan Erdmanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04234688186113838474noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9242710.post-44545095736595243992009-07-02T12:47:31.555-04:002009-07-02T12:47:31.555-04:00Ok, sorry I took so long to get back to this.
Jon...Ok, sorry I took so long to get back to this.<br /><br />Jon, the temple would be more comparable to like...the church.<br /><br />But when you talk about "the system" (quotes because you sound like a conspiracy theorist - but you know, in a...good...way) you tend to be talking about government and capitalism.<br /><br />Yeah, Jesus wanted to radically alter the religious system...but you never see Him riled up about Rome even though Rome's a little freaked out by Him for a moment.<br /><br />So, I mean, do you really see Jesus crusading against the food industry or would He be doing other things with His time?<br /><br />And asking Jesus fuck anything (Why do people use that as a bad term? They're always whining not having enough, but when they're angry they curse people with sex? Incomprehensible) seems wildly outside the attitudes Jesus had.Melodyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10071513255237535104noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9242710.post-29445424273334308832009-07-02T12:46:25.600-04:002009-07-02T12:46:25.600-04:00This comment has been removed by the author.Melodyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10071513255237535104noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9242710.post-25426237234732367342009-06-30T16:49:33.308-04:002009-06-30T16:49:33.308-04:00Melody...I recently read a book called _The Powers...Melody...I recently read a book called _The Powers that Be_ by Walter Wink, which reinterprets Jesus as being *primarily* concerned with systems of oppression, power structures, etc. It was a re-interpretation of the Gospels. An excellent book with quite convincing scholarship. What was so helpful to me was how he carefully explained this new interpretation. It helped me, someone steeped in a certain way of reading the Bible, see Scripture, and Jesus, in an entirely different light.tamie mariehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10273116686980623819noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9242710.post-34663574347271503932009-06-30T16:47:55.423-04:002009-06-30T16:47:55.423-04:00Hey Doyle...sorry it took me so long to get back t...Hey Doyle...sorry it took me so long to get back to you!<br /><br />Yeah, you're right that we need new metaphors. When I think "Kingdom" I think "Rivendale" or something equally lovely and idealistic. I don't have those imperialistic associations with the word itself. But clearly that's a matter of semantics and your point is well taken.<br /><br />I also think you make a good point about it being easier to focus on one's personal morality. Jon and I were just talking about this this morning, actually. I just read an article written by Derrick Jensen, which said that even if every person in America stopped driving a car, changed all their light bulbs to the ecofriendly kind, recycled at work, etc. etc., it would only reduce less than a quarter of the US's carbon emissions. Even if everyone did their individual part, we'd still be fucked. Because it is indeed about changing the system.<br /><br />But: how? <br /><br />That is the question.tamie mariehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10273116686980623819noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9242710.post-32538995590126818352009-06-23T11:25:20.417-04:002009-06-23T11:25:20.417-04:00Doyle, You make a great point, about how it is eas...Doyle, You make a great point, about how it is easier to focus on one's personal morality than to find new ways of doing things while moving within the system.Jonathan Erdmanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04234688186113838474noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9242710.post-65899593185935852502009-06-23T11:23:35.526-04:002009-06-23T11:23:35.526-04:00Melody,
What do you see in the Gospels that sugge...Melody,<br /><br />What do you see in the Gospels that suggest to you that Jesus was a guy who did <i>not</i> want to take down the system?Jonathan Erdmanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04234688186113838474noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9242710.post-62794062677801502142009-06-23T11:22:59.621-04:002009-06-23T11:22:59.621-04:00Melody,
My feeling is that taking down the system...Melody,<br /><br />My feeling is that taking down the system was the central motivation of Jesus' life. He wished to bring about a new kingdom. He wasn't a Zealot, in the sense of looking to violently replace one government with another, and he even said, "give unto Caesar what is Caesar's." However, he (on at least one occasion) took a whip and cleared out the temple of those who sought to exploit the poor. The poor came to pray, but they were being used and exploited by.......the system..........it was a system and a power of oppression, and it was the only time (as I recall) that Jesus ever actually acted out in a violent way.<br /><br />I've been mainly dealing with the Apostle Paul, but Jesus would be the paradigm embodiment of who I would want to imitate when it comes to taking down the system.Jonathan Erdmanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04234688186113838474noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9242710.post-15221333414780540212009-06-23T10:08:01.002-04:002009-06-23T10:08:01.002-04:00Did you ever notice, Jon, how Jesus didn't rea...Did you ever notice, Jon, how Jesus didn't really seem to care about taking down the system? <br /><br />The Jews thought He was going to take down Rome, but He didn't do that. What makes you so sure He's interested in taking down our system?Melodyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10071513255237535104noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9242710.post-41623783905613210412009-06-23T06:41:25.433-04:002009-06-23T06:41:25.433-04:00"So, if one is talking about a kingdom where ..."So, if one is talking about a kingdom where the misfits and fools gather to talk about resisting the powers that oppress and numb humanity, somehow trying to collaborate on what a "new creation" might look like..."<br /><br />Generally I'm in favor of this model. Is it God or the devil who's in the details? E.g., how do new-creation farmers, grocers, tax accountants, psychologists, etc. do their jobs differently from their counterparts in the old creation? This I suppose is why it's easier for the church to stick with personal morality (am I honest in doing my job?) rather than tackling these more systemic issues (is my job ethical?).john doylehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05484728969355294193noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9242710.post-83021021259310265342009-06-22T17:34:55.698-04:002009-06-22T17:34:55.698-04:00Tamie/Doyle,
I'm all for incorporating positi...Tamie/Doyle,<br /><br />I'm all for incorporating positive prayers that compliment the "fuck the system" prayers. As Doyle notes, the difficult thing about using the "kingdom" terminology is that it is so attached to Imperialistic theology of domination. The "kingdom" of Jesus--if one can call it a kingdom--is of a very strange sort: it's a kingdom with an absentee king who has been crucified. Sure, he rose again, but then he strapped on his jet pack and blasted up to heaven, leaving only the highly ambiguous Holy Ghost to be a "comforter."<br /><br />So, if one is talking about a kingdom where the misfits and fools gather to talk about resisting the powers that oppress and numb humanity, somehow trying to collaborate on what a "new creation" might look like, then we've got a kingdom that is New Testament-ish. But that's just not what people think of when they think of kingdom.........but then again, Jesus used the damned terminology to begin with! And in his day "kingdom" was no less militant or Imperialistic; so, I'm open to keeping the terminology.<br /><br />How about this, for starters, as a rough draft:<br /><i>Fuck the system<br />Thy kingdom come<br />Thy will be done<br />On earth as it is in heaven<br />Amen</i>Jonathan Erdmanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04234688186113838474noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9242710.post-20591858188486604172009-06-22T17:19:23.401-04:002009-06-22T17:19:23.401-04:00Tamie, it's clear that Erdman will have to cle...Tamie, it's clear that Erdman will have to clean up his marketing slogan if he's going to take it on the road with seminars and books; e.g., "F*** the System..." I almost put up a comment earlier about how I wasn't a big fan of kings asserting their will over the whole earth, but I resonate with your call for justice and love and compassion. Some other metaphor needs to replace "kingdom" and "will" if the appeal is to extend beyond church-branded initiatives. Just to stir up trouble, I herewith quote Erdman's recent comment on my blog:<br /><br />"I think the “Christianity” that is concerned with “higher purpose/will/design/plot” is just Imperialism dressed up as theology. If one’s faith is an expression of concern for the other, justice for the oppressed, interest in the marginalized, etc., then what one “grabs hold of” is in the here and now. It ceases to become faith in an overpowering narrative in an omnipotent God whose intent is to bend the will of the infidel."john doylehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05484728969355294193noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9242710.post-38077875208453916112009-06-21T22:58:43.922-04:002009-06-21T22:58:43.922-04:00I was thinking, what if every time we prayed, like...I was thinking, what if every time we prayed, like at a meal or something, we said, "Fuck the system. In Jesus' name, Amen."?<br /><br />But then I was thinking: that's a prayer that focuses on undoing the negative. Which is obviously extremely important.<br /><br />But what if we came up with a prayer that was about DOING the positive? What would that prayer be?<br /><br />Maybe it would be, like, "Thy Kingdom come, Thy will be done."<br /><br />The prayer "Fuck the system" is a prayer that I think assumes action and intent. Like, it assumes that we are aligning ourselves with a certain paradigm (one in opposition to the (violent) system), and it assumes that we are going to be willing to *do* something about aligning ourselves with that paradigm.<br /><br />So, what if we prayed "Thy Kingdom come" and meant, when we prayed it, that we were willing to really do something about it? Meant that, in praying that we desired God's reign of love and compassion and justice to come here and now, we were going to do all that we could, in our neck of the woods, to work for the reign of love and compassion and justice.<br /><br />What then?tamie mariehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10273116686980623819noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9242710.post-8277676834159765482009-06-19T13:25:10.173-04:002009-06-19T13:25:10.173-04:00Tamie,
Good point about this whole thing feeling ...Tamie,<br /><br />Good point about this whole thing feeling overwhelming.<br /><br />It is.<br /><br />It goes to the fact that so much about our system of life is going against human health and flourishing, in favor of profit, greed, and gain. Truth be told, it's pretty much <i>everything</i> in the system.<br /><br />But since it is a system thing, it's hard to pinpoint the bad guys. Every once in a while a really bad, bad guy comes along: Enron, Al-Qaeda, etc. When this happens, we can crucify the scapegoat to bring a temporary feeling of peace. But as you are suggesting, we won't experience true change as a culture (not to mention real transformation at a personal level) until we can stop hating people, institutions, people groups, other nations, Corporations, etc. and just simply do our own part to live in opposition against the powers of evil--the nameless, faceless forces of greed and desire that fuel consumerism and the reckless approach we take to our environment, each other, and our very selves.<br /><br />Fuck the system. In Jesus' name. Amen.Jonathan Erdmanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04234688186113838474noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9242710.post-11652489152312712272009-06-18T21:04:43.613-04:002009-06-18T21:04:43.613-04:00Tamie,
It would bother me less if they were fri...Tamie, <br /> It would bother me <i>less</i> if they were friends. But doing business with friends bothers me too. <br /><br />For example, if something were wrong with the food I don't think I would be able to call my friend up and say, "You sold me old milk!" or what-ever. <br /><br />Or, I work for a publishing company that has a sister printing company and so when I need something printed I print it there. <br /><br />Last time, they messed it up and I got it re-done somewhere else so I didn't have to tell them they messed it up. <br /><br />It's stressful to me to know the people I'm doing business with.Melodyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10071513255237535104noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9242710.post-35676939732654745632009-06-18T18:00:54.350-04:002009-06-18T18:00:54.350-04:00Oh but, one more thing, on a kind of different lin...Oh but, one more thing, on a kind of different line.<br /><br />Today I was listening to NPR as I drove around to get groceries. The story on was about Food, Inc. What the hell is up with Monsanto! What is wrong with people! <br /><br />This has a lot to do with what Kelly was talking about, the illegality of buying raw milk. I don't even know what to say about that. Why don't the cops go arrest the CEOs of Monsanto? Why don't they go arrest the chemical plant owners? <br /><br />Needless to say, this wasn't really a helpful show to listen to, right before going grocery shopping. I was nearly paralyzed! I mean, I bought organic yogurt, but it comes in a PLASTIC CONTAINER. <br /><br />I think this gets at one of the reason some people just give up. It's overwhelming. Hence the need for friends and a local community that's in it with you.<br /><br />So here is my question for you, Melody: if you *knew* the people you bought food from, if they were friends of yours, do you think it would bother you so much? In other words, is it the fact that these are *strangers* who are learning the intimate details of your life?tamie mariehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10273116686980623819noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9242710.post-21284912200138776782009-06-18T17:56:04.167-04:002009-06-18T17:56:04.167-04:00Amy and Kelly, I hope you don't mind if I make...Amy and Kelly, I hope you don't mind if I make up awards for you two. The awards will say:<br /><br />Extremely Cool Human Being<br /><br />Yes, this is what I want to reward you for. <br /><br />I think you're all right, that it's such a process. It's subtle, takes a lot of time. And I don't know about you guys, but after a couple years of thinking like this--more like, 7 or 8 years--I'm totally flummoxed and flabbergasted at people who eat fast food regularly, or who find organic food "trendy" or whatever it is that the status quo thinks of folks like us. I'm reduced to a stuttering non-conscious being, when such people cross my paths.<br /><br />Then I remember that when I was in high school I ate at Taco Bell all the time, drank a couple Mountain Dews a day, and routinely threw my (fast food) trash out the window of my truck. I was just so utterly cut off from myself, the earth, my food supply, etc.<br /><br />And thus I can take a deep breath and remember that being judgmental just ain't helpful.<br /><br />Although, being judgmental of the stupid systems and structures and corporations that sell us this bullshit is necessary! A moral ought!<br /><br />Enough from me for now.tamie mariehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10273116686980623819noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9242710.post-22660089818466323612009-06-18T14:17:43.798-04:002009-06-18T14:17:43.798-04:00Good commentary.
Intriguing, is it not? The thing...Good commentary.<br /><br />Intriguing, is it not? The things we spend our money on that is <i>not</i> good food? <br /><br />Interesting thoughts, Amy....interesting to see how people completely expend their bodies and souls in the pursuit of such trivial things that are defined by our culture as "meaningful."Jonathan Erdmanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04234688186113838474noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9242710.post-15556249925740522952009-06-18T12:16:32.789-04:002009-06-18T12:16:32.789-04:00Tamie, not just food. Anything.
I just don't ...Tamie, not just food. Anything. <br />I just don't like my purchases to be a social situation. <br /><br />Like, my parents buy their meat and milk (they have a share of a cow) and other random stuff from local people and my mom likes chatting with the people, but I find it hideous the way they comment on what we're eating or aren't eating or whatever. <br /><br />Why should I have to go through that just to get some milk? It's unpleasant!Melodyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10071513255237535104noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9242710.post-25560154308558093002009-06-18T07:03:10.438-04:002009-06-18T07:03:10.438-04:00For anyone who doesn't know, raw milk can be o...For anyone who doesn't know, raw milk can be obtained legally in states where it can't be sold by buying into a cow. A group of people all "own" the cow "together" (that is, they pitch in for the upkeep and the farmer cares for and milks the cow), and you get the milk "for free." (Hehe! You buy the cow and get the milk for free! Hehehe! Okay, done now.) They can't outlaw drinking milk from a cow that you own.<br /><br />I don't know how to do it around here though. (Kevin and I don't go through milk quickly enough to justify buying it raw.) I know some people in Etna Green who own part of a cow.amynoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9242710.post-34789159881743431732009-06-17T22:20:54.724-04:002009-06-17T22:20:54.724-04:00I think a prevailing theme is the fact that for mo...I think a prevailing theme is the fact that for most people breaking free of the system in how you view the stuff you put into your body is a process. Not many people become organic health fanatics overnight. You have to grow and evolve to a point where it becomes a lifestyle choice. It takes time and so much research.Kellsotrhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13656853262760921818noreply@blogger.com