tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9242710.post8124909422921431436..comments2023-10-31T07:23:17.922-04:00Comments on The Theos Project: RebellionJonathan Erdmanhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/04234688186113838474noreply@blogger.comBlogger104125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9242710.post-70112247904990014012018-06-12T02:05:40.893-04:002018-06-12T02:05:40.893-04:00God is true. who give your life then? --my opinion...God is true. who give your life then? --my opinionAnonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15851215003841285997noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9242710.post-63293624574945766932008-09-20T21:45:00.000-04:002008-09-20T21:45:00.000-04:00Blogging comments are so hard when you really don&...Blogging comments are so hard when you really don't know the person you are talking to..<BR/>With that said, anyone who knows me now, will know that I am the last to judge and the first to listen. <BR/>I take no offense at anything that has been said regarding my comments. So no worries there. And also in retrospect, I judge no one for thier opinions. Sometimes on the comments, because I am typing them, it sounds like I am ridiculously "witchy", but I am only stating my opinion. <BR/>I think we have come so far off the subject of Ivan, that we need move on. So, I am not going to comment any longer in this entry. Wish I could speak to some of you in person, so you could see & know how awesome I think ALL of you are, everyone with thier own perspective. I think it's great! Talk with you soon in other entries...and giving this one a rest. :)Eve...Interruptedhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00390130185612371167noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9242710.post-77769431022810728122008-09-20T13:20:00.000-04:002008-09-20T13:20:00.000-04:00Also, Tamie, to say that Genesis is just a story, ...<I>Also, Tamie, to say that Genesis is just a story, or that's it's just someones record on how good and evil may have started and no the Word of God, is literally a slap in God's face, and well, mine too...with all do respect. Again, it goes back to the faith thing. <BR/>I believe it happened, just as we read it written. There are things that don't make sense, but that is not for me to worry about. God put in there what was most important.</I><BR/><BR/>Amanda - not to jump on you - but...if "Word of God" means that "it happened exactly as its written", in the way I think you mean that...then I do think its a bit rediculous to say that its a slap in God's face not to think of it as the "Word of God." Now I do think that the Bible is the "Word of God", but I don't, in the way that you think of it (I think), necessarily think "it happened exactly as it says it happened."<BR/><BR/>now, Amanda i feel like i'm running the risk of being misunderstood and sounding like i'm being judgemental towards YOU. but what i'm really trying to do is sort of calm the waters a bit...hopefully in what i, at least, would consider a truthful way (take that for what its worth, lol). so to hopefully explain a bit of what i mean, which i hope will also get across the message that i'm not being judgemental...i'm just sharing where i'm at while also trying to observe where i percieve the stormyness is coming from here...i am going to quote brian mclaren at lengh, rather than try to just explain it myself...<BR/><BR/><I>When Alice recalls a talk I gave at our contemplative service about how 'everything in life has meaning,' she is referring to a brief talk i gave on what Christians would call 'the doctrine of creation.' It is significant that this talk impressed her so profoundly, because one of the streams of Christian belief that nearly disappeared during the spiritual drought of modernity was creation. Sadly, over the last few centuries, creation became 'nature,' and as such became the domain of physics, chemistry, astronomy, and biology. When Christians tried to talk about creation, it was usually an ill-concieved (in fact, I would say disastrous) debate over evolution, one of our many tragic adventures in missing the point.<BR/><BR/>So, in teh talk - it was more like a brief meditaiton really - at Anam, I simply tried to help people imagine what it would be like to live in a world that really was God's creation. In such a world, I suggested, there is nothing purely 'objective' - meaning there is nothing that does not have a personaly value attached to it. Why? Becasue if God is Creator, and God has feelings for everything God has made, then every atom in the universe is not a neutral object,</I>[in other words - Tamie - he is saying that observable phenomenon are not not a pieces of evidence that prove or disprove a scientific hypothesis...I'm not sure if that's what you were getting at previously when you mentioned "rock solid evidence" for the truth of the creation account in Genesis]<I> rather it is the artwork - beloved artwork - of a Creator who values every square centimeter of space, every moment in time, every quark, muon, gluon, neutrino, and proton; every whale, sparrow, chipmunk, and child. In other words, as we wander through the universe, we are not just encountering meaningless stuff; rather, we are wwalking through an art gallery, filled with objects full of meaning, expressiveness, revelation of the Creator's heart, intelligence, compassion....<BR/><BR/>This view of things, I suggested, would result in a diferent attitude towards every part of life - toward ecology and endangered species, toward manufacturing (is this a good use of God's precious elements?), toward architecture (would this design do honor to the precious space that God has created?), toward leisure and work and recreation (are we honoring God's gift of time through workaholism or laziness or half-heartedness or boredom?), and certainly toward our treatment of one another. After asking everyone to imagine such a world, I suggested that this is the world that actually exists.</I>[i.e. - the scriptures of Genesis are "true", it is in fact "the Word of God"] <I>This is basically all I said. I simply stated that in the beginning, God created the heavens and the earth, and that fact means that everything has meaning.<BR/><BR/>That this made such an impace on Alice tells us something amazing and exciting: In our postmodern world, the simple elements o four Christian belief mosaic are unspeakably precious and profound again. They aren't "oh, yes, of course" - but rather, "it was incredible...I'll never forget it." This wonderful new situation, wehre the simple and basic elements of our faith suddenly become magical and valuable again, <B>explains why I find theological quibbling over theological esoterica in such bad taste and such a sad…waste of time. The beauty of "in the beginning God created" should make us giddy with joy and speechless with wonder for decades, leaving us little time to argue over...over stuff I don't even want to dignify by mentioning here....</B><BR/><BR/>In this light, it is worth noting that Alics's kind words about my speaking are overshadowed, just as they should be, by her words "WAHT YOU SAY is so incredible." Maybe you will agree with me that much of our preaching feels pumped up, inflated, like a sales pitch, as if we are trying to make mediocre news sound really, really good. And that is becasue too much of the time we are preaching points of our belief system that are only peripherally related tot he heart of the real and ultimate good news. If we would rediscover teh substance, the essence, the heart of our good news, we would have to work less on how we say because what we say would in itself be so powerful.</I><BR/><BR/>:)<BR/><BR/>jasonJason Hesiakhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12628162727207930087noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9242710.post-65282253904221620602008-09-20T12:33:00.000-04:002008-09-20T12:33:00.000-04:00This comment has been removed by the author.Jason Hesiakhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12628162727207930087noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9242710.post-15337716029097304592008-09-20T08:59:00.000-04:002008-09-20T08:59:00.000-04:00This comment has been removed by the author.Jason Hesiakhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12628162727207930087noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9242710.post-11422153573293814552008-09-19T23:42:00.000-04:002008-09-19T23:42:00.000-04:00Tamie, I never meant to sound like I was fighting ...Tamie, I never meant to sound like I was fighting or arguing, just stating that I believe the Bible and it's writings to be true through and through, whether I understand it all or not, or for that matter follow it exactly(I am human, after all)...I say it with passion, not loudly in a judgemental way. Sorry if it sounded that way.<BR/>Jon, "Need" has it's different meanings as well as degrees, I think.Eve...Interruptedhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00390130185612371167noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9242710.post-10007959998564811612008-09-19T17:36:00.000-04:002008-09-19T17:36:00.000-04:00Tamie: Jon....I'm trying to understand where you'r...Tamie: <I>Jon....I'm trying to understand where you're coming from in terms of us coming to a time when our need for God is drastically reduced. What elements do you think comprised our need for God in the past, and how our those elements absent now.</I><BR/><BR/>Historically, here are a few needs that God has been used for.<BR/><BR/><I>Science and nature</I><BR/>Humans used to need God to explain the world. Now we have science, and although it is far from perfect, we all kind of understand that there are naturalistic explanations for things. Hence, we don't need God to explain the strange actings of nature.<BR/><BR/><I>Morality</I><BR/>People used to believe that without God or gods, there would be no morals, and without morals, everyone would be completely evil and would have no reason to do good. But that's kind of absurd. People just do good out of the goodness within....or sometimes they do good because of non-good reasons (to look good in other's eyes or to feel good about themselves). The point is, we don't need God to be good, or even to explain goodness in the world.<BR/><BR/><I>The Jesus of the well-adjusted</I><BR/>We used to believe that we needed God to "fill the void" inside. This is where I believe current American Christianity is most heavily invested. It can be summed up on a bumper sticker:<BR/>Know Jesus. Know peace.<BR/>No Jesus. No peace.<BR/>I think it's ridiculous. First of all, there are plenty of well-adjusted folks who don't have God or Jesus in their lives. We can have peace and contentment without God. Conversely, there are plenty of faithful believers who are not psychologically well-adjusted. Jesus said many disturbing things about carrying one's cross; Paul had a death to self theology; and then there are disturbing examples like Job. I think most Christians in American today tell themselves that they need Jesus to feel good, but in reality they don't. But regardless, the point is that Jesus and God are now sold as a cure for our psychological blues, i.e., it is the latest example of a need-based approach to God.<BR/><BR/>T: <I>More importantly, I'm trying to understand why you're defining relationship with God in terms of need. It sounds to me a little like an adolescent who says to his parent, "I don't need you anymore!" Okay yes well true, but there's a lot more to relationship than needing someone in that physically dependent way. But perhaps you're getting at something else?</I><BR/><BR/>Seems like you're coming from a similar perspective as Ktismatics, in terms of questioning the idea of whether "need" is such a good thing.<BR/><BR/>Question: Do you feel like you need God? (Perhaps that's a bit too personal.) Or, how do you view your relationship with/to God?<BR/><BR/>I think that a lot of American Christianity has invested itself and legitimated itself upon this alleged need for God. (Remember the hymn, "I need thee every hour.") Pop evangelism seems based almost entirely on needing God for something or other. (The famous "God shaped hole" of Billy Graham....goes back to Augustine: "our hearts are restless until they find their rest in thee.") I'm curious about exploring other relations to God that are not need-based.Jonathan Erdmanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04234688186113838474noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9242710.post-18336925503904708972008-09-19T16:22:00.000-04:002008-09-19T16:22:00.000-04:00I'm simply not sure how to respond without it just...I'm simply not sure how to respond without it just becoming a kind of quiet shouting match. One person believes one thing about what the Bible is; another person believes another. But we are both <I>believing.</I> I see no rock-solid evidence for the Bible being handed down as if from on high. It's not like it's written into the rocks and trees, whether the Bible is the inspired/inerrant Word of God. We're guessing here, one way or another. My experience, education, and reflection has led me to guess in a certain way. Why this is a slap in God's face, or anyone else's, is a mystery to me.<BR/><BR/>This dialogue no longer feels like dialogue to me. It feels like fighting, and sometimes it feels like evangelism. I don't want to fight, and while I really value honest dialogue, I don't value being preached at.tamie mariehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10273116686980623819noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9242710.post-29123091574080224792008-09-19T15:11:00.000-04:002008-09-19T15:11:00.000-04:00Amanda: He put a stipulation on that one tree, we ...Amanda: <I>He put a stipulation on that one tree, we wrecked, so he set a new one: "He must not be allowed to reach out his hand and take also from the tree of life and eat, and live forever."<BR/>So in a sense, He basically condemed us to death in hell.<BR/>How, Jon, may I ask, is this a good thing then, to know Good and Evil?? </I><BR/><BR/>Not living forever is to be condemned to death. But the Genesis text says nothing about hell. That would be yet another example of reading something into Genesis that isn't there.<BR/><BR/>And why is not living forever such a bad thing?<BR/><BR/>Here's a bit from the script of the movie <I>Troy</I> spoken by Brad Pitt as Achilles:<BR/><BR/><I>I'll tell you a secret-- something they didn't teach you in your temple. The gods envy us. They envy us because we're mortal, because every moment might be our last. Everything is more beautiful for the doomed.<BR/> <BR/>He stares at her with such intensity she must look away.</I>Jonathan Erdmanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04234688186113838474noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9242710.post-19584130733819216112008-09-19T13:19:00.000-04:002008-09-19T13:19:00.000-04:00A couple things I have picked up here:First as I w...A couple things I have picked up here:<BR/>First as I was reading again the text in Genesis, where God speaks about us being like Him, once we knew Good and Evil..<BR/>He put a stipulation on that one tree, we wrecked, so he set a new one: "He must not be allowed to reach out his hand and take also from the tree of life and eat, and live forever." <BR/>So in a sense, He basically condemed us to death in hell.<BR/>How, Jon, may I ask, is this a good thing then, to know Good and Evil?? <BR/>Also, Tamie, to say that Genesis is just a story, or that's it's just someones record on how good and evil may have started and no the Word of God, is literally a slap in God's face, and well, mine too...with all do respect. Again, it goes back to the faith thing. <BR/>I believe it happened, just as we read it written. There are things that don't make sense, but that is not for me to worry about. God put in there what was most important.<BR/>As for us no longer needing God, I would have to agree that this is the generational "twist" these days. The era's "need" for God has changed. But our NEED for HIM is still the same, in fact, more desparate than ever, imo. We THINK we don't need Him as much, thanks to technology and the business world, building and moving at the speed of light practically. Everything you could want, you can have. There is little deprivation anymore. Even with the current recession at hand.<BR/>People don't think they need God, Erdman. I hope that this is what you meant... But our lives are dependent upon HIM, soley! Would you not agree, Jon?Eve...Interruptedhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00390130185612371167noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9242710.post-49463510553073198752008-09-19T12:48:00.000-04:002008-09-19T12:48:00.000-04:00Here is what I think about Genesis. I think it is...Here is what I think about Genesis. I think it is a record of how people tried to understand the world, the human condition, God, evil, toil, relationships, the ordering of the universe, etc. etc. It's not written by God, it's not the inerrant word of God, and it may or may not bear much relationship to how <I>we</I> want to choose to understand God, evil, etc. It is the record of how some people chose to understand those things, once upon a time. In some places, I think they got it right--or, their understanding accords with my own. In some places, I take departure. I try to do this with humility, because I also take seriously the wisdom of generations, my own smallness, and the fact that I do believe God breathes through the text (like God breathes through just about everything). But still. The whole Adam and Eve story, and everything else in Genesis, was an explanation that made sense to people at one time. Maybe they missed a few things. Maybe, for example, pregnancy or working has nothing to do with the consequences of sin. Maybe their understanding of sin was a bit off. <BR/><BR/>Jon....I'm trying to understand where you're coming from in terms of us coming to a time when our need for God is drastically reduced. What elements do you think comprised our need for God in the past, and how our those elements absent now. More importantly, I'm trying to understand why you're defining relationship with God in terms of need. It sounds to me a little like an adolescent who says to his parent, "I don't need you anymore!" Okay yes well true, but there's a lot more to relationship than needing someone in that physically dependent way. But perhaps you're getting at something else?tamie mariehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10273116686980623819noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9242710.post-2603825025300487542008-09-19T12:02:00.000-04:002008-09-19T12:02:00.000-04:00well at least this guy has a sense of humor about ...well at least this guy has a sense of humor about "eisegeting"...<BR/><BR/>http://talkingdonkey.wordpress.com/2005/09/07/eisegeting-scripture/<BR/><BR/>lol.<BR/><BR/>anyway...the thing is your interpretation of the text...eisegeting or exegeting or what-the-heck-ever...is a lot like that of the gnostics...in this instance. although since i know next to not much about calvinism, it may be that too...i dunno????????????<BR/><BR/><I>Do you think human beings need God in the 21st century? How so?</I><BR/><BR/>yes i think they do. at the least i am quite positive that I do. to first address nietche's commentary on modern science and the need for God...i think that just because we take for granted the "advantages" of modern technology, it doesn't mean that there aren't gifts or at least things from God behind all that. or even...the Laws of nature by which those technologies operate. i think its in Job: "without the breath of God, then all things would just disappear like a puff of smoke"...lol that was definitely a paraphrase.<BR/><BR/>and on for me these days a deeper level. like that poem i shared previously. when i am RULED OVER by my lust (or other character issues that feed it), i NEED the (Spirit of the) LORD to regain self-control (one of the "fruits of the Spirit")...self control over that part of myself that is weak. i say that out of experience. i seriously simply don't know the theology of it. i just know - from experience - that i simply need God for that. i can't do it myself, i just can't. trust me - i've tried.Jason Hesiakhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12628162727207930087noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9242710.post-81223223393672617012008-09-19T11:29:00.000-04:002008-09-19T11:29:00.000-04:00Yes. The Gnostics loved Genesis 1-3. They had a go...Yes. The Gnostics loved Genesis 1-3. They had a good time eisegeting the text!Jonathan Erdmanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04234688186113838474noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9242710.post-58922947779592748782008-09-19T11:25:00.000-04:002008-09-19T11:25:00.000-04:00Well, whether or not you think that the knowledge ...Well, whether or not you think that the knowledge of good and evil is "worth it" depends on who you are. I think it's worth it...but Ivan obviously does not....and, I suppose, on certain days I might be less convinced of its worth.<BR/><BR/>Jason: <I>if God did "set man up" to gain "knowledge of good and evil", is this another way that God embedded into the structure of the universe a say for man to "need" God?</I><BR/><BR/>I don't think so. The reason is this: I think humanity is moving forward into a time where our need for God is being drastically reduced. We still have our knowledge of good and evil, but our need for God seems to be non-existent.<BR/><BR/>Do you think human beings need God in the 21st century? How so?Jonathan Erdmanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04234688186113838474noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9242710.post-89173475215882912692008-09-19T11:22:00.000-04:002008-09-19T11:22:00.000-04:00Btw...the following...Maybe we should avoid using ...Btw...the following...<BR/><BR/><I>Maybe we should avoid using terms like "the fall." Did humanity really "fall" when they gained the knowledge of good/evil? Or did it just usher them into a new mode of existence and open their eyes....The so-called "fall" was merely becoming God-like in our knowledge of good and evil. Is knowing good and evil such a crime?????</I><BR/><BR/>...although in plain english, when taken at face value, has roots in scripture ("[the serpent] you surely will not die...will just become more like god...[then God speaking]having become like one of us")...that sounds very very much akin to the language of a gnostic.Jason Hesiakhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12628162727207930087noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9242710.post-89659568109020934072008-09-19T11:18:00.000-04:002008-09-19T11:18:00.000-04:00what about the simple fact that God had explicitly...what about the simple fact that God had explicitly told man not to eat the fruit of that tree, and "the serpent" was trying to (successfully) convince man to disobey "The Lord God"?<BR/><BR/><I>The LORD God commanded the man, saying, "From any tree of the garden you may eat freely; but from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for in the day that you eat from it you will surely die."</I> <BR/><BR/>And what about the consequences? The shame (they went into hiding, and covered themselves up, realizing they were naked)? Are you saying its just worth it to "know good and evil", even with such consequences? Consequences such as enmity between various parts of creation, pain in childbirth, people ruling over others, a cursed ground and sweat to get anything up from it, and not to mention the degradation of one of God's creatures, the serpent ("on your belly you will go, and dust you will eat")?<BR/><BR/>And anyway...if God did "set man up" to gain "knowledge of good and evil", is this another way that God embedded into the structure of the universe a say for man to "need" God?Jason Hesiakhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12628162727207930087noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9242710.post-77704341343068057412008-09-19T10:18:00.000-04:002008-09-19T10:18:00.000-04:00Another often glossed over fact: the Genesis accou...Another often glossed over fact: the Genesis account does not link the serpent with Satan.<BR/><BR/>I think this is important because <I>the intention</I> of the Genesis text is NOT to assign evil to Satan. There is a wily serpent who gets punished, but the primary responsibility for gaining the knowledge of good and evil comes from elsewhere.<BR/><BR/>I think we can make a good case <I>from the text</I> that God set man up to gain the knowledge of good and evil......and maybe that's not such a bad thing. Maybe we should avoid using terms like "the fall." Did humanity really "fall" when they gained the knowledge of good/evil? Or did it just usher them into a new mode of existence and open their eyes.<BR/><BR/><I>22 And the LORD God said, "The man has now become like one of us, knowing good and evil. He must not be allowed to reach out his hand and take also from the tree of life and eat, and live forever." 23 So the LORD God banished him from the Garden of Eden to work the ground from which he had been taken. 24 After he drove the man out, he placed on the east side of the Garden of Eden cherubim and a flaming sword flashing back and forth to guard the way to the tree of life.</I><BR/><BR/>The so-called "fall" was merely becoming God-like in our knowledge of good and evil. Is knowing good and evil such a crime?????Jonathan Erdmanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04234688186113838474noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9242710.post-15737132773516008052008-09-18T20:57:00.000-04:002008-09-18T20:57:00.000-04:00oh. thanks tamie for the explanation. well...lol...oh. thanks tamie for the explanation. well...lol that sounds like a complicated mess, doesn't it? well if that's what you mean by literal, then no i don't think of the story "literally." or...maybe i do. i don't even know. to me there are too many other questions wrapped up in the issue to be able to answer. what is a myth? what is the relation between tbe literal and the actual (speaking phenomenologically, maybe, to a degree at least)? what is the relation between experience and theoretical doctrine (between spectacle and action, basically)? how has that changed through history? ect. i think every one of those questions - and the "answers" i have come to - influences how i think of the issue you are raising. but i will say, though, that i think, for example, that the creationism vs. intelligent design debate is a useless waste of time (for the most part, at least).<BR/><BR/>it all comes down to signifier and signified :) what/who does this term "lucifer" ACTUALLY MEAN, for example? :)<BR/><BR/>anyway...thanks for asnwering my question :) i understand better now what you meant.<BR/><BR/>PEACE and goofiness!<BR/><BR/>jasonJason Hesiakhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12628162727207930087noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9242710.post-9321581622656223072008-09-18T19:22:00.000-04:002008-09-18T19:22:00.000-04:00by 'literal' i suppose i am trying to mean the sam...by 'literal' i suppose i am trying to mean the same thing most people mean when they talk about a literal interpretation of the bible. they don't actually mean that they take everything in the bible literally of course. metaphors in the psalms, for example, are not taken literally. but things like the earth being created in seven days, starting with light and darkness and finishing up on day six with the creation of one man and one woman--that's taken literally. i myself do not take that literally.<BR/><BR/>the reason why it seems like this matters in light of the current conversation is: if evil did not come from an angel named lucifer rebelling against god, and then luring the man and woman to rebel against god....then where did it come from? (although, even if it did come from lucifer, this still doesn't really answer the question of how and why evil exists in the universe, how lucifer had that capacity, why god created things to be such that evil is possible.)<BR/><BR/>it feels to me like people often jump to this simple and easy conclusion: oh, evil comes from satan/the temptation in the garden. the man and woman chose to eat the fruit, really bad things ensued. that explanation seems simplistic as a literal answer, though perhaps powerful as a figurative and mythic answer. but either way, ait doesn't work very well for me.tamie mariehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10273116686980623819noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9242710.post-23186860007821345132008-09-18T18:26:00.000-04:002008-09-18T18:26:00.000-04:00and tamie...i really was curious to hear what you ...and tamie...i really was curious to hear what you mean by "literal"???Jason Hesiakhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12628162727207930087noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9242710.post-6900853190209681152008-09-17T11:46:00.000-04:002008-09-17T11:46:00.000-04:00kt: the observation that suffering is overrated i...kt: the observation that suffering is overrated is perhaps one of the greatest--and perhaps ironically, one of the most humorous--insights i've heard in a long time. merci.tamie mariehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10273116686980623819noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9242710.post-33626995062226667992008-09-15T12:38:00.000-04:002008-09-15T12:38:00.000-04:00OK...so I have sat back and read a while...Jason.....OK...so I have sat back and read a while...<BR/>Jason...no offense taken. everyone is entitled to his/her opinion. <BR/>tamie...you do not believe in adam and eve's story, because you choose not to have faith that it "literally" happened. It's not a question of whether it happened or not,it's a question of whether you believe it did or not.<BR/>kt...I do not hail Mary, or take speaking to the one I call Father(God) to be a ritualistic chant. <BR/>But I do not say any of this you any of you in a harsh tone or ill dimeanor. Contrary, I tell you this with compassion. <BR/>Ivan, questioned God and his purpose, he questioned God's existence. He has a heart, but it is merely skn deep. He "cares" about the children, yet does nothing to help them. He likes to talk about it,and not believe in it...no take action in it...he passively returns the ticket so he doesn't have to be involved. I still think his conscience is in turmoil. But so was Judas' before he commited suicide, b/c he could't bare the fact that he was the one who turned Jesus in. God was perfect. Evil is not perfect. We are created in the likeness of him, not just like Him. So yes, we are imperfect...but of our own doing...<BR/>another thing...to answer the question about evil's beginning:<BR/>Evil didn't start in the garden! <BR/>It started with a fallen angel, Lucifer, who was the one who tempted Eve.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9242710.post-46514109292716809712008-09-15T10:21:00.000-04:002008-09-15T10:21:00.000-04:00doylomania...lol i dont' think your conversation p...doylomania...lol i dont' think your conversation partners are catholic :)<BR/><BR/>on ivan and my pain...thanks for saying that (seriously). i was hesitant to comment here at first b/c of the tension between simply inhabiting the text via comment and using the text as a mission field...i kinda saw that one coming. i just sort of went with where the thread went. and sorry to hear that about your momma.<BR/><BR/>crap at work gotta go...Jason Hesiakhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12628162727207930087noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9242710.post-75877157575479259852008-09-15T06:49:00.000-04:002008-09-15T06:49:00.000-04:00Jesus Christ, you Christians are impossible. It's ...Jesus Christ, you Christians are impossible. It's as if the whole world were a mission field, including that part of the world populated by fictional characters. This is a freaking travesty of readerly good faith, thrusting these characters into your own moral universe rather than letting them occupy the one the author set them in. Now say 3 Hail Marys and 3 Our Fathers and promise you will TRY not to do this any more.<BR/><BR/>Hesiak, I feel your pain and I hear your theological interpretation of its value to others, but Ivan wouldn't look at it the way you do. I don't think he'd deny the possibility of fellowship in suffering on a purely human level. He can empathize with another's suffering, just as he can empathize with another's sadism. These experiences and emotions are part of the shared human condition, regardless of how we got this way or whose fault it is. <BR/><BR/>And certainly people have different responses to their own sufferings. My mother, e.g., got polio when she was in her twenties, leaving her quadriplegic and dependent on a respirator to breathe. One of her mottoes: suffering is overrated.john doylehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05484728969355294193noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9242710.post-8603960631957602932008-09-15T06:48:00.000-04:002008-09-15T06:48:00.000-04:00amanda i'm sorry i didn't mean to bash you with th...amanda i'm sorry i didn't mean to bash you with the hogwash thing, but it certainly came across that way i'm afraid. but i do think you were heading in a funky direction...<BR/>:)Jason Hesiakhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12628162727207930087noreply@blogger.com