tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9242710.post879793054051206259..comments2023-10-31T07:23:17.922-04:00Comments on The Theos Project: Moby Dick by Herman MelvilleJonathan Erdmanhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/04234688186113838474noreply@blogger.comBlogger11125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9242710.post-57083564437299474422012-10-19T07:35:23.364-04:002012-10-19T07:35:23.364-04:00Moby Dick of Herman Melville is awesome. Thanks ...Moby Dick of <a href="http://thequotes.net/2012/10/herman-melville-quotes/" rel="nofollow"> Herman Melville </a> is awesome. Thanks for sharing this with us.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17046357187483980779noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9242710.post-90294239402308209972010-06-22T16:26:03.252-04:002010-06-22T16:26:03.252-04:00Excellent. Yes, I will put The Myth of Sisyphus at...Excellent. Yes, I will put <i>The Myth of Sisyphus</i> at the top of the reading list. Good. Good. I might also make the Camus novels a priority for future months.<br /><br />I actually have owned <i>Sisyphus</i> for a year or so now, but for one reason or another I have not gotten 'round to reading it.Jonathan Erdmanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04234688186113838474noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9242710.post-64327935939612204232010-06-22T12:24:47.474-04:002010-06-22T12:24:47.474-04:00You'd probably find this Camus essay worth rea...You'd probably find this Camus essay worth reading, since he writes fairly extensively about Dostoevsky. It's in a compilation called The Myth of Sisyphus -- but now isn't the time for you to go tracking down more books to pack into boxes. I had previously cited Camus' endorsement in a short post I wrote about Moby Dick in the early days of my blog.<br /><br />"writers seem to fall prey to hope in their writing and that in this way they fail to mirror the reality of life (which is absurdity)? Do we need to be vigilant as writers, not to fall prey to hope, so as to more accurately mirror reality? This seems to be what he is saying. Would you agree?"<br /><br />Yes, that's pretty much what Camus is saying. So why is Moby Dick an absurd novel on these grounds? I think that Ahab really hoped he could challenge "Job's whale" and win, but he was wrong. Moby Dick bore no message from God for Ahab, like He did for Jonah and Job. Ahab's fate -- everyone's fate -- is just a faceless, speechless, powerful brute force that eats you up bit by bit until finally it takes you under. Ishmael alone survives to tell us the bad news, which is this absurd and hopeless tale.john doylehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05484728969355294193noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9242710.post-40588342437592873102010-06-21T12:47:35.715-04:002010-06-21T12:47:35.715-04:00Great quote, John. It's a great addition to th...Great quote, John. It's a great addition to this thread.<br /><br />Have you been reading this Camus essay recently? Or did the discussion remind you of it?<br /><br />And what's your take on this?<br /><br />My initial question for Camus is whether he views hope as intricately and intimately related to absurdity <i>almost as a necessary part of the human experience</i>, or if his view is that writers seem to fall prey to hope in their writing and that in this way they fail to mirror the reality of life (which is absurdity)? Do we need to be vigilant as writers, not to fall prey to hope, so as to more accurately mirror reality? This seems to be what he is saying. Would you agree? And do you share the same viewpoint?<br /><br />I've studied a bit of Camus in relation to my studies of Qoheleth. One biblical scholar (Michael Fox) has done extensive research and writing on the correlation between Qoheleth and Camus' notion of the absurd. It is fascinating, although I think there is probably more that can be done in that comparison, especially in relation to postmodern perspectives.<br /><br />I have two of Camus' novels on my list: <i>The Plague</i> and <i>The Stranger</i>.Jonathan Erdmanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04234688186113838474noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9242710.post-6013379806988651612010-06-20T10:31:40.932-04:002010-06-20T10:31:40.932-04:00Camus, in his essay "Absurd Creation," i...Camus, in his essay "Absurd Creation," identifies Dostoevsky as a writer who explores the absurd theme: stuck in an existence that's intrinsically illusory and meaningless, why not commit suicide? But Dostoevsky's main characters always bail out at the last minute, reaffirming hope in God and eternal life. Then Camus says this:<br /><br /><i>"At this point I perceive, therefore, that hope cannot be eluded forever and that it can beset even those who wanted to be free of it. This is the interest I find in the works discussed up to this point. I could, at least in the realm of creation, list some truly absurd works <b>(Melville's Moby Dick, for instance)</b>. But everything must have a beginning. The object of this quest is a certain fidelity. The Church has been so harsh with heretics only because she deemed that there is no worse enemy than a child who has gone astray. But the record of the Gnostic effronteries and the persistence of Manichean currents have contributed more to the construction of orthodox dogma than all the prayers. With due allowance, the same is true of the absurd. One recognizes one's course by discovering the paths that stray from it. At the very conclusion of the absurd reasoning, in one of the attitudes dictated by its logic, it is not a matter of indifference to find hope coming back in under one of the most touching guises. That shows the difficulty of the absurd ascetics. Above all, it shows the necessity of unfailing alertness..."</i>john doylehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05484728969355294193noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9242710.post-23622406561548565802010-06-08T12:07:58.068-04:002010-06-08T12:07:58.068-04:00Aha! Yes. That is very astute observation, very ke...Aha! Yes. That is very astute observation, very keen. A "Job's whale" does indeed connect with the Hebrew text in a direct way, making the connection between God and the whale (and also the adversary/Satan).<br /><br />Melville was only about thirty when he wrote Moby Dick. What a genius.Jonathan Erdmanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04234688186113838474noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9242710.post-26101762009844139342010-06-08T00:59:18.631-04:002010-06-08T00:59:18.631-04:00On further thought, Job's whale probably refer...On further thought, Job's whale probably refers to the whale in Job 41. The idea there is, if you can't mess with Leviathan, what makes you think you can mess with God? But you're also right that Moby is also the satanic adversary. This is part of the blurring of good and evil. This fits the Job story, where it's clear at the beginning that Satan is acting as Yahweh's agent. Ahab too is sort of satanically godlike. The chapter following the reference to Job's whale is The Whiteness of the Whale, where Ishmael notes the way in which whiteness betokens both holiness and sinister terror -- two sides of god, the whale, man.john doylehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05484728969355294193noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9242710.post-88324571693063779692010-06-06T10:31:00.512-04:002010-06-06T10:31:00.512-04:00'The whale is "immortal in his species, h...'The whale is "immortal in his species, however perishable in his individuality."'<br /><br />If the whale is God, then maybe He's been reduced by 90% over the past 200 years. I recently heard about <a href="http://www.amazon.com/Towing-Jehovah-Harvest-James-Morrow/dp/0156002108" rel="nofollow">Towing Jehovah</a>, a 1995 novel by James Morrow. It turns out that God has died, his two-mile-long corpse having been discovered floating out at sea.john doylehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05484728969355294193noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9242710.post-8842479859250441212010-06-06T09:37:55.224-04:002010-06-06T09:37:55.224-04:00I think there is a strong Job theme. What do you d...I think there is a strong Job theme. What do you do when God wrecks your life? Job bore it patiently and was compensated twofold; Ahab wanted revenge and was destroyed. This is a Greek mythic theme as you say, the idea of man pitting his will and wit against the capricious but powerful gods. It's a more heroic vision of man than Jonah's flight or Job's passive acquiescence. Sometimes the Greeks failed, sometimes they succeeded, but at least they tried.<br /><br />Which brings another thought to mind. You say there are two main characters in Moby Dick: Ahab and Ishmael. What about Moby Dick? He doesn't speak, he has no face, but he's more of a significant force in the action than is Ishmael, who mostly just observes and comments. It's Ahab versus Moby Dick as the two adversaries.<br /><br />Another thought: might we not think of Ishmael and Ahab as doubles, or perhaps two sides of man? Ishmael is the passive thinker and evaluator; Ahab, the active doer. Kind of like "Jack" and Tyler in Fight Club.<br /><br />What to think of the Biblical names Ishmael and Ahab? Ishmael is the other son of Abraham, father of the Arabs, unchosen, yet in Moby Dick Ishmael alone survives. King Ahab I don't know as much about: a warrior-king of Israel, married to foreign princess Jezebel, tolerant of idolatry, renounced by the prophets, Ahab was killed randomly in battle and the dogs licked his blood. It would seem that the names convey something of a mongrelization, a blurring of the old distinctions between gods. And we certainly see this mongrelization on the Pequod, with various peoples and religions invoked. It's also a blurring of good and evil I think.<br /><br />You call Ishmael a pilgrim: this whole voyage is a pilgrimage, isn't it? The crew think they've signed on to a commercial venture, but it turns out they're embarked on a haphazard course that's a return to God, or the devil, or whatever it is you decide that Moby Dick is. The asides about whales and whaling are sort of like theological and exegetical commentaries: meticulous, factual, sometimes mythic, but never really getting much closer to truth about the main Subject in question. <br /><br />And it is a return, which according to the old distinctions makes it a pilgrimage rather than a quest. There is no Promised Land or holy site toward which they sail; instead, they seek God himself and their inevitable doom on the open seas. In Genesis that's where the strange Leviathan lives, the terror of the Deep. But maybe that's where God lives too: not in any one place, claimed by any one people, but everywhere, anywhere, nowhere.john doylehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05484728969355294193noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9242710.post-78711518559460215512010-06-03T12:51:23.891-04:002010-06-03T12:51:23.891-04:00Ha, ha!
Good catch. I see that the text has bambo...Ha, ha!<br /><br />Good catch. I see that the text has bamboozled me. Well, fair enough. Hopefully my entire analysis does not collapse! But if it does--if the sea swallows her as I fear it has--then it will simply go the way of all flesh.<br /><br />Should I change the post? I'm inclined not to. Let's let the error stand. Any review of <i>Moby Dick</i> is itself a quest to harpoon the deadly whale. Best to take Starbuck's advice and pull out before the whale pulls you down. "Beware thyself old man."<br /><br />A "Job's whale"? I don't really see how Job fits into this narrative, particularly at this late stage. I like your interpretation. Perhaps it is bad news for the reader, who presumably is a member of Western Civilization. Is this a prophecy of the collapse of civilization into the sea? The reader is Job and must soon grapple with the fact that everything has been taken from him.<br /><br />Another thought would be that Melville perhaps deliberately conflated "Job" and "Jonah." Perhaps he assumed that the reader (like myself) would see "Job" but read it like "Jonah." Then, although the reader is reading it as a "Jonah's whale" (thus making the Hebrew and Greek connection complete), there is also the gloom of Job looming o'er the narrative.Jonathan Erdmanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04234688186113838474noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9242710.post-20852665038219266042010-06-02T13:35:07.372-04:002010-06-02T13:35:07.372-04:00Congratulations for completing the entire voyage, ...Congratulations for completing the entire voyage, Erdman. There are many things of interest in your excellent post, but I must begin with an error, to which, if we were psychoanalytically inclined, we might ascribe unconscious meaning. <br /><br />"The first is in Father Maple's sermon on Job. God is not to be trifled with. Beware the disobedience of Job, Shipmates! Melville gives us an entire sermon on Job..."<br /><br />First note, trivially, that it's Mapple with 2 p's (possibly thinking ahead to the forests of Maine?). More importantly, the sermon is of course not on Job but on Jonah. However, your quote of Ishmael is accurate: he says that Ahab is chasing a "Job's whale." <br /><br />Did Ishmael make a mistake? Pretty surely not. One-legged Ahab is a Job who takes his bad fortune not stoically but vengefully. And the brief Epilogue begins with a quote from Job: "And I only am escaped alone to tell thee." In Ch. 1 of Job three different messengers report to Job of the disasters that have befallen him; each messenger concludes withe the "and I only" phrase. So now Ishmael is the messenger: to whom is he reporting the disaster? Not to the Job-like Ahab, that's for sure. It's to the reader, isn't it? It would seem that Ishmael is telling us of our bad fortune, that this whole story is bad news for us. How so?<br /><br />Incidentally, I could utter the "I only" phrase here too, Erdman, as it seems that all commenters but the Viagra salesman have jumped ship.john doylehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05484728969355294193noreply@blogger.com